๐Ÿ‘คpmoriarty๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ306๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ167

(Replying to PARENT post)

I read this and I think of the courage that it must have taken to write, however, I quickly realize that my thoughts are based on today's mindset where questioning the government gets you labeled a conspiracy nut or traitor.

We have been warned by many about the military industrial complex, yet, it doesn't sink in.

Our current president was elected on promises of ending these wars and somehow he will go down in history as the champion of military occupation and perpetuating conflicts in places we don't belong.

Truth is that peace doesn't make money, it doesn't grease the wheels of industry, the difference is that where is the industry? It used to be that the US would at least benefit from the industry through employment and tax revenue, but what if the production is no longer in the US? Who benefits then? I can tell you with accuracy who doesn't ..

๐Ÿ‘คpgnas๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

"But the soldier pays the biggest part of the bill"

I'm not sure how it was in Butler's time, but I've read that the overwhelming majority of casualties in modern warfare are civilians. It would seem to me that they are the ones who pay "the biggest part of the bill".

Not that I would deny that the people doing the mass murder can themselves become the victims of war. But I'd personally have more sympathy for civilians who are not trying to murder others but are themselves murdered.

๐Ÿ‘คpmoriarty๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

"The U.S. wars in Afghanistan and Iraq will cost taxpayers $4 trillion to $6 trillion, taking into account the medical care of wounded veterans and expensive repairs to a force depleted by more than a decade of fighting" - Washington Post, March 28, 2013
๐Ÿ‘คghouse๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

> Yes, they are getting ready for another war. Why shouldn't they?

A couple notes on the war drum:

The 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force [0] targeting the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks has been invoked to deploy US armed forces to Afghanistan, the Philippines, Georgia, Yemen, Djibouti, Kenya, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Iraq, Somalia and Syria. [1][2]

A new proposed Authorization for Use of Military Force [3] targeting ISIS, "its associated forces," and "any successor organizations" is arguably more open-ended.

The author of the proposal, Lindsey Graham (Senior Senator from South Carolina), seeks to grant the next president "the ability to go after ISIS without limitation to geography, time and means." [4]

[0]: https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-107sjres23enr/html/BILLS...

[1]: https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/aumf-071013.pdf

[2]: https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/R43760.pdf

[3]: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/114/sjres26/text

[4]: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/policy-budget/congr...

๐Ÿ‘คchishaku๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

My understanding of many of the most recent military engagements by the US is that they are basically sandbox experiments for prototyping new warfare tech and tactics, especially to study things like asymmetric urban warfare in which the distinction between combatant and civilian is difficult.

We enter the conflicts under whatever pretext is popularized in the media, but the real reason is to fuel warfare R&D efforts, grow surveillance infrastructure, and collect data that reflects situations our military leaders forecast to be important.

Large contracting firms profit. Soldiers lose time, often also money, often their mental health and family relationships, and sometimes their lives. Taxpayers lose money. Foreign civilians lose their lives. Few benefits are ever given to soldiers or foreigners, if they are even paid lip service with promises of benefits at all.

It's basically a string of smaller scale proxy wars to fuel tech, surveillance, and population control between larger, "actual" wars.

I fear we are already past a point where democratic process could stop it. I think by now it would require almost an actual revolt from U.S. citizens on U.S. soil, and that it would be bloody, and that part of the military engineering being studied is exactly how much civilians will tolerate before being pushed to the point of revolt.

As long as you can watch Netflix on your iPad and put it out of your mind, then while it might ruffle your feathers, you won't actually take action that could jeopardize your creature comforts. Even things like Occupy Wall Street seem like they are more data collection opportunities than anything else. "OK, so they will protest via X, Y, and Z, but too few of them can be pushed to do A, B, or C for us to care."

It's a very depressing feeling. In the meantime, just like everyone else, I have to worry about money, family, life goals, comforts, health, and all my biases push me to ignore the military industrial conflict, because already giving it maybe 1/100th of my overall bandwidth is exceedingly depressing. Something close to 40% of the country believes in young earth creationism. Open up to a highly-visited YouTube video and scroll down to the comments and behold the inanity of how we use our time and what our priorities are.

How could enough people possibly coordinate beliefs and actions around humanity-affirming rebukes of the military industrial complex? Of course they won't, so then I guess I'd better put my brain towards how to live in a world where they won't, which is too depressing to think about... and the cycle continues.

I'm sure it has been articulated even earlier than the early 1900s. It's just goes on and on.

๐Ÿ‘คp4wnc6๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

> "[It's] peace, not war, that makes wealth for a country. War just transfers possession of the residue from the weaker to the stronger. Worse, what is bought with blood is sold for coin, and then stolen back again. [...] It's a wondrous transmutation, where the blood of one man is turned into the money of another. Lead into gold is nothing to it."

-- "The Curse of Chalion", by Lois McMaster Bujold

๐Ÿ‘คTerr_๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

Butler is famous, but not for his US military service. For his military service with the United Fruit Company and duPont.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

๐Ÿ‘คAnimats๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

For those who are interested, a good book on the history of opposition to war is:

http://www.amazon.com/We-Who-Dared-Say-War/dp/1568583850

It was written by a leftist and libertarian/paleoconservative working together, so you will likely find something you love and something you hate in it, as with all good books.

I very much regret my early support for the Iraq war.

๐Ÿ‘คcarsongross๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

While Butler was quite spot on with his early 1930s post-mortem assessment of WWI, a less isolationist approach might have possibly lessened the scale of WWII.

Some aspects of it's stance, like home territory limited military presence and exclusive zones of interest are simply obsolete in an era of ICBMs and satellites.

For some context and general description of sentiment in the 30s:

https://www.americanhistoryusa.com/power-of-isolationists-be...

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1937-1945/american-isol...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nye_Committee

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrality_Acts_of_1930s

๐Ÿ‘คmxfh๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

Reminds me very much of Eisenhower's farewell address from 1961:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenhower's_farewell_address
๐Ÿ‘คCieplak๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket. โ€” Eric Hoffer (paraphrase)
๐Ÿ‘คnihonde๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

I love Smedley Butler! Good link. Always wiki - the business plot to see how corporate america tried to get Smedley Butler to lead a military coup of mercenaries against the US government during FDR's presidency.
๐Ÿ‘คForcesOfOdin๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

If you liked Butler's perspective, then you will probably also like Garet Garrett's [0] oeuvre. He was an outspoken critic of WWI, and of America's entry into WWII until after Pearl Harbor. His position against an imperial America delivers a wider context to Butler's field experience as handmaiden to American power elites' ambitions accomplishing just that outcome.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garet_Garrett

๐Ÿ‘คyourapostasy๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

While it is hard to argue with the points in the article, there is this concept of 'global influence' or influence on global politics, which is hard to put a $ value on.

Hasn't this global influence played a huge part in maintaining USA as a global superpower ?

๐Ÿ‘ค0x99๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

I read an NYT article a while ago that made the argument that the effect of people who did not support the Vietnam War evading the draft was a military that was, twenty or so years later, when the people who did join became senior, very conservative or willing to wage war. Along the lines of the critical theory idea that some of the Left have become ineffective by not involving themselves in actual politics, I think it's important to not be deterred by this idea of war, as the only way the military-industrial complex will change is if people with better values come to make up more of the military. Maybe this will come to be the case as younger people see decreasing future job prospects and turn to the military as a career.
๐Ÿ‘คgriffinmahon๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

War allows populations that don't share markets to still develop markets in relationship to each other for weapons, infrastructure repair, etc.
๐Ÿ‘คkingkawn๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

I have read through the comments, and it strikes me that I dont see more combat vets on here. I knew some really smark hackers while I was in the Marine Corps, even though I was just a bullet sponge grunt in OIF/OEF.

It also gladens my heart just to see my favorite Marine, Smedley Butler, get some "air time". It does dissapoint me that so many in the comments are making escuses for war as a profit or r&d center, or for war crimes prosecutions of what are essentially pawns on a grander chessboard.

In the Marine Corps, a lot of people have a hardon for Chesty Puller, but the phrase I used to use is "If you like Chest more than Smedley you do the country and the Corps a disservice." Why? Because not only did Smedley Butler wake up and realize the true nature of the part he played, but he spoke out against it, and beyond that, something I havent seen mentioned yet but something I think is of the utmost importance is his thwarting of the business plot. His convressional hearing testimony is vital to understanding the modern racket of war, and now we have the unredacted version, (though still not his full testimony, because it was heavily edited before even entering the record). If you havent read the unredacted testimony, I highly suggest it.

All that being said, war indeed is a racket, and it continues to be. The WFA (waste fraud and abuse) I saw in Iraq by contractors is barely the icing on the racket cake. There is a reason that something like the richest three counties in the US are in Virginia. The true racket though, is much larger than the contractor world, and primarily involves banking and resource oriented interests.

I spent a long time voraciously reading anything I thought could help me understand the bigger geostrategic/political chessboard, and my primary conclusion about the wars were that resource wars are on the horizon, and the wars were destabilizing measures designed to contain China and Russia by prevention of resource pipelines being built to them. Take a look at the maps of resources and their pipelines...

The other factor is that the traditional nation state actor threat model is being upended by texhnology, to the point that the military industrial congressional complex isadjusting very quickly.

My primary problem with this is how much the people of the US have been lied to and misled. If the United States has some interest in destabilizing an area, I would prefer that this just be said and the case be made outright, instead of sending young dumb warriors like myself to die for causes they dont understand and are lied to about. You want to know where I feel like the primary failure lies at? Every O-5 and above officer who just went along with it and didnt pushback against the Cheney, Bremer, Wolfowitz, Rumsfield bunch of Chicago school Straussian neocons backed by Kissinger and Brezenski. When you cant tell me what my fucking objective is, how can I be expected to accomplish it?

In truth, where we are headed currently is a return to the tripolar world, but in this move, I think we will never fully understand the almost complete subversion of our government that has happened at the behest of the globalists. Smedley Butler caught a glimpse of the beast and had the courage to fight against it openly. He will continue to be my favorite Marine until I die.

Oh, and for any of you touting the economic benefits of war, I hope you never are on the ground on either side when that benefit is being extracted by blood and corruption...

๐Ÿ‘คarca_vorago๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

War is always connected to money... here is an example..

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/allwarsarebankerwa...

๐Ÿ‘คbasicplus2๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

i am surprised butler got this far on hn. read this before the next elections. before the next assad. before your friends and relatives go on tours with the troops.
๐Ÿ‘ค345218435๐Ÿ•‘9y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0