(Replying to PARENT post)

That there was ever a debate at all is still astounding. Economics has fuzzy areas, but basic principles of supply and demand are very well-established. It's clearly nonsensical to imagine that we can simultaneously lower prices, limit supply, and allow for demand growth. The longevity of this bizarre idea demonstrates how strongly political ideas of how the world ought to work blind us to how the world does work. We'd do well to take the wool from our eyes in other contentious disputes.
๐Ÿ‘คquotemstr๐Ÿ•‘8y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

It is perplexing to me why the burden of proof was ever placed on "increasing supply decreases prices" when the mechanism by which rent control + limiting construction is supposed to benefit anyone besides those already occupying those units is totally unclear.

I don't even think it's "ought" vs "does" - it's more NIMBY interests being more ingrained into local politics allowing them to somehow gaslight everyone into thinking the laws of supply and demand don't apply to housing.

๐Ÿ‘คjjxw๐Ÿ•‘8y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

I don't think it ever truly was a debate over supply effects. I think the true debate is whether people agree or disagree on the desirability of more housing, and the "more supply won't help" argument was coopted by those who needed a more palatable argument than straight NIMBYism.
๐Ÿ‘คhkmurakami๐Ÿ•‘8y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

> That there was ever a debate at all is still astounding.

It's due to the unfortunate rhetorical coincidence that it's very easy to paint this belief as "trickle down economics" (even though it's absolutely not) and many, many voters will nonetheless be fooled.

Example: https://archives.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/its-still-calle...

If you haven't registered to vote where you currently live, please do so now. In many states (including California) it takes just a couple minutes, you can do it entirely on the Internet, and you don't even need a local driver's license.

๐Ÿ‘คraldi๐Ÿ•‘8y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

Part of the problem and the confusion is this: People have their rent controlled apartments here in SF at a tiny fraction of the "real" market rate. And, so when they see market rate housing going up (hamstringed by affordability requirements, driving prices even higher), they're seeing market rates that are much much higher than rent controlled rates. This causes them to believe that increasing supply actually increases rents. Here's the distinction: Increasing supply ONLY decreases market rate rents, it does nothing for the below market/rent ceiling prices, at least not until supply can be massively increased to point where it goes below the rent ceiling.
๐Ÿ‘คpascalxus๐Ÿ•‘8y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

I think in some areas (cant speak for all) the debate is about whether other things are affecting the market in a way that should make them the approach to tackling affordability rather than purely worrying about supply.

This then becomes politicised and people paint broad brushes of each argument, one side arguing "its not about supply! Its about x policy!" and the other side arguing "Its about supply and demand!".

Both sides are extremes, when the answer may well lie somewhere along the line in the middle. Specifically, in Australia the debate is about whether the best way to tackle affordability is Supply/Demand or whether it is reducing incentives for investors (tax breaks for house investors). There are solid arguments on both "sides", but its pretty clear that housing supply plays a part in both solutions.. the real question is to what degree it has a bigger impact than changing government policy in this case.

Point is the overall reason/cause doesn't mean it's the only consideration and thinking of it that way can lead to dismissal of valid joined issues/solutions.

๐Ÿ‘คJauntyHatAngle๐Ÿ•‘8y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

I completely Agree. It's absolutely insane that people think limiting the supply of housing can actually decrease prices. And that this is happening in some of the most highly educated cities where degrees are handed out to nearly 50% of the population.

One big thing they don't understand. You MUST increase the supply, absolutely MUST. There's no other way, except to reduce the number of jobs in the area. Every single regulation, every single affordability requirement reduces the total amount that can be built.

I've heard this: People make the argument: well every new market rate housing goes to rich people. What they dont get, is, for each so called rich person who moves into that new development, a new house comes onto the market (their old residence) and that helps push down prices.

It's unthinkable that so many people are going homeless needlessly. We need to increase the supply all the way to point where housing becomes affordable to everyone. And, yes, it will take a long time and a lot of building, but It'll be worth it.

๐Ÿ‘คpascalxus๐Ÿ•‘8y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

While I agree with your general point, I think both you and the article are glossing over part of the debate. The opponents of adding market rate supply that I have seen aren't opposed to new supply in a vacuum. They are opposed to letting the market dictate the supply because the market usually creates supply at the top.

The costs of buying land and building a mid-market building is not that much cheaper than building a luxury building. This causes the free market to favor new higher price units which leads to other development that pushes out the previous residents. Sure, that new supply will trickle down and lead to more affordability throughout the whole market, but it can still lead to higher prices in that specific neighborhood due to gentrification. It is therefore a balancing act between the health of the whole market and the health of individual sub-markets within it.

๐Ÿ‘คslg๐Ÿ•‘8y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

To offer a very slim thread of credibility to the argument, there are cases in which supply and demand interact ... oddly. The canonical case is probably traffic: increasing highway capacity increases congestion.

But, beyond the topical similarity, the cases fall apart. The situation with traffic involves only a small incremental cost being born by each driver, whilst in housing, the internalised costs are large. The drivers of housing inflation -- the interest of numerous parties in increasing asset values (free money for no work!) most especially -- are also highly different.

Actually, that last factor tends to make me suspect that the housing arguments are at least in a significant number of cases insincere.

๐Ÿ‘คdredmorbius๐Ÿ•‘8y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

Forget about housing for a minute.

Would you agree that a speculative boom can cause an increase in demand?

๐Ÿ‘คtmnvix๐Ÿ•‘8y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

The problem the the "it's the supply and demand stupid" justification for high house prices is that it ignores the fact that on what's supposed to be the demand side we have a massive oversupply of borrowed-into-existence virtually free money.
๐Ÿ‘คhanoz๐Ÿ•‘8y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

"That there was ever a debate at all is still astounding."

There never was. There are actual, valid debates around construction policy, however. Among them:

  1) should you prefer subsidized housing or market-rate?
  2) should you remove cheap, existing housing stock to make room for market-rate?
  3) does new construction lead to gentrification of affordable neighborhoods?
The article is explicit that the answer to #1 is probably "yes", and it's pretty clear that if you care about the affordability individual neighborhoods, the answers to 2 and 3 are "no" and "yes", respectively, because real estate is obviously not a commodity product. Lowering the mean rent figure for a city does not guarantee that low-income neighborhoods/people benefit from the trade.
๐Ÿ‘คtimr๐Ÿ•‘8y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0