(Replying to PARENT post)
(Replying to PARENT post)
I remember this. I wasn't old enough to join up, but I'd not have.
It was widely ridiculed at the time, and most folks didn't really respect it.
It wasn't the MRM that killed your movement; it just never took off, and was never really positively received by wider society.
(Replying to PARENT post)
"Farrell is widely considered to be the father of the men’s rights movement. In a series of books published since the 1980s, he has made the case that the primary victims of gender-based discrimination are men—casualties of a society that relies on their sacrifices while ignoring their suffering. He blames this phenomenon for a litany of woes, from the plight of blue-collar workers to the state of veterans’ health care and rising suicide rates among young men. Many of today’s men’s rights activists view Farrell’s 1993 book, The Myth of Male Power: Why Men Are the Disposable Sex, as their touchstone, and the online forums where they congregate are steeped in Farrell’s ideas"
[1] https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/01/warren-farrell-...
(Replying to PARENT post)
I'm a man who's currently deeply lonely, depressed, and struggling with poor self-esteem. I hear feminists talking about "toxic masculinity". But none of what they say feels applicable to me. I've never been violent; I'm currently trying therapy for the third time; and I can't remember even a single time when someone told me to "man up". So, while I'm sure toxic masculinity is a real problem for some men, I don't feel like it's the issue that's hurting me personally.
The issues that do feel like they're hurting me personally are things like:
* Negative stereotypes of men as incompetent, boorish, etc.
* The widespread attitude that "men suck"
* The stereotypes of socially awkward men (like me) as gross/creepy/neckbeards/etc.
* Difficulty navigating expectations around how dating and relationships are supposed to work, especially as a socially awkward man
The feminist movement does a great job of addressing the issue of toxic masculinity. But when it comes to the issues I listed above, many feminists don't take them seriously, and some feminists are actually making them worse:
* A feminist in this thread making excuses for the "incompetent, boorish dad" stereotype in media: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36473710
* A feminist in this thread making excuses for saying "men suck": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36474484
* That time when a socially awkward man talked about his feelings (https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=2091#comment-326664) and a feminist said some extremely toxic things in response (https://web.archive.org/web/20150113081455/http://www.rawsto...) (Yes, that controversy was eight years ago, but it's really stuck with me)
Now, I'm definitely not trying to say that "feminism is terrible" or anything like that. Feminists are fighting the good fight on many gender-equality issues. Feminism arguably deserves credit for why I never had to struggle with toxic masculinity, and I'm grateful for that. But at the same time, there are unfortunately some really shitty people in the feminist movement, and they're are causing real harm to people like me. And my experience has been that the feminist movement defends and enables those people, rather than letting them be held accountable.
So my reaction to the article is: I know toxic masculinity is a real problem, and I'm glad feminists are fighting against that problem. But the problems that are hurting me personally are different from toxic masculinity, and unfortunately some feminists are actually exacerbating my problems. So, when I hear feminists blaming most/all of mens' problems on toxic masculinity, that actually feels to me like it's derailing the conversation from the issues that are most important to me.
I hope my perspective helps you see another side of the issue.
(Replying to PARENT post)
(Replying to PARENT post)
Step one is building the future you want to see. Step one isn't waging a cultural battle.
A well articulated alternative might even sap the wind from it's sails. But if you want to wage war without anything else to offer them... you'll just be entrenching the status quo.
Connecting to men might require discussing sore cultural subjects with a bit of impropriety. The problem for you, is that all the people willing to say "fuck good taste" aren't following it up with the message you want.
(Replying to PARENT post)
Later, the monstrosity called the "manosphere" completely gutted our movement and turned it into a grievance fest against feminism. They stole our issues but instead of working on them, they weaponized them against feminists, especially against us feminist men. Domestic violence by and against men, paternal rights, genital mutilation, psych support, male fragility and toxic aspects of traditional masculinity, etc. But then they never did anything about any of these problems but bitch and bash feminists with them. As if it's womens' job to clean up our mess.
Step one to improving the situation for men is to destroy the right-wing MRM. "Let men be men again!" is the cry of the regressive who sees the problems and plugs his hears screaming "Naaaaaah!" No progress is possible from that position. If you bother to look, the MRM does absolutely nothing to confront the problems men face in this world. Why? They don't want to. They do not care about men's problems, they only care about protecting men's ability to rape, dominate, and abuse.
Take a look at this thread. For so many commenters their problem is with acknowledging the problems. Pointing out the toxic aspects of traditional masculinity is seen as an attack rather than an attempt at resolving the issues. How the hell are things supposed to improve if we can't acknowledge problems or ally with the movement [feminism] that did the first work to outline such problems? Feminists have been pointing out toxicity of the "man up" attitude for decades. So have queers. Feminists and queer men are natural allies in this struggle to improve men's lives. But we've let proto-fascists hijack the conversation.
My greatest fear is that reactionary men join across class and race lines to form a united front for fascism. That's certainly the goal of the MRM. We must stop them. Let's go back to a Men's movement that forms alliances, rather than buries heads in the sand.
If we did that, we could have men's domestic violence shelters, an ACLU for paternal rights, education policy makers that tackle bullying and lack of emotional support for men, and so much more. But we don't because too many are lured in by propagandists who would gladly destroy democracy to protect the status quo.