Please don't post flamewar rants to HN. You made the thread far worse with this. Veering into fascism at the end didn't help.

We want thoughtful, substantive, and above all curious conversation on HN. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Its fucking wild that folks are advocating shame as a method for dealing with drug addiction in the year 2023. As if shame isn't one of the major contributing factors to the crippling opioid crisis to begin with.

An astonishingly large number of people got hooked on legal prescription drugs which were pushed by billion-dollar pharma companies and the medical profession as a whole. Shame is what drives people away from admitting their addiction and seeking treatment towards illegal means of procuring a fix.

The mind boggles at just how phenomenally stupid this thread is.

It presents an interesting problem for those "left behind" who value shame, self-restraint, and other unpopular virtues. The neoliberal view is that you can prove your point by forming subcultures that do better than the surrounding culture. I think that's true, but it's a plan B - plan A should be to fight hard to not lose those values in the first place.

It's appalling that public discourse about systemic issues has entirely displaced talk of personal responsibility. It's appalling that a positive openness to alternative lifestyles has extended to an absurd dropping of ALL standards. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

Sean Carroll has a recent podcast episode descrying the "crisis in physics", which he (partially) articulates as a problem of perception. As much as he himself always wanted to be a science heretic, he notes that all previous successful heretics were experts in the established state-of-the-art, and now if a member of the public researches physics, ALL they hear from are "heretics" who don't know the first thing about established physics. It's like the act of rebellion itself has eclipsed the utility of the specific act.

It's difficult for me to overstate how much I disagree with you.

I don't need more people being shamed for being gay, for wearing the wrong outfit or for not fitting in. Shame just doesn't work well at a practical level. To say nothing of the superpower that gives the shameless.

Meanwhile, I find your alternative of "well if we don't have shame, we'll just have to make explicit laws about it" to be not a bad thing at all. You called it fascism with no real reasoning. Explicit laws that we can change and discuss seems like a good way to manage things!

The ex of someone I know is both a user and a dealer. He opted to be homeless over getting clean. Sadly here in the states there is little you can do if an adult chooses a self destructive path - calls to sheriff/police did nothing - “nothing we can do until he commits a crime”. Where “crime” is something other than the drug use/possession.

This individual has always been self absorbed and useless. His daughter asked him to change for her, he wouldn’t. His daughter’s counselor basically told her to decide how to remember him, it’s unlikely he will make it a year.

Personally, I feel the individual is a PoS and hope he suffers but it’s heart wrenching to see the affect it’s having on his daughter.

Addition: this is happening in one of the more permissive and “progressive” communities in CA.

> Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract.

In places with diverse people from different backgrounds and cultures (i.e. all modern cities) there is no social contract. Apart from murdering people, there are very few things that people agree are universally good or bad, and thus the behaviour moderating effect doesn't exist either.

As someone who was raised in a very small town with sort of strict culture (didn't really seem like that to me at the time, but by modern urban standards it was that), I can very easily see how the cultural relativism leads to all kinds of social problems in western urban world. In my town no-one did drugs, because that would have been shameful. People around you (all of them to some extent) are important, you are important to them and you care about what they think about you, and as a result you don't want to do stuff that will look shameful in their eyes. Without this guidance from other people, (some) people end up going down into rabbit holes of drug habit, alt right, etc.

This is a fascinating view on the sedative crisis. The lack of shame from "normal" people feels very real. Complete inaction to the staggering and ever increasing death count rate and bodies piling on the ground IS utterly shameful, but not for 2023 USA.

I've noticed as well that when I've spoke to friends and family about open drug use and markets I become the one who's "out of line."

Do we as a free society have no shame left to express?

This is a wild take. I get what you're going for, but I think you've got the problem wrong. The issue is that society has been constructed (deliberately or accidentally) by corporate interests to make the average person feel devalued and useless to the point that they be don't believe anyone cares about them, so why should they care about themselves, especially when they fall on harder times. The idea that shame is somehow missing in society is wrong, many of these people feel intense shame, but that is outweighed by the perception that society doesn't give a single fuck about them so they stop moderating their behavior as a coping mechanism.

You're essentially "victim blaming" here, shame is not a healthy motivator. The "social contract" has been eroded in favor of "if you're wealthy/beautiful/healthy/etc you're a more important member of society". "If you can provide more money to the corporation, you are more important"

Eh, I think shame as a societal tool is outmoded anyway. Sure, it can be used by our monkey brains to enforce "the greater good" as judged by our peers, but in some countries "the greater good" is throwing gay men off buildings.

The US is filled with so many contrasting opinions that it's a survival skill to be able to ignore people trying to induce feelings of "shame". Whether you're a liberal who doesn't want to feel shameful that you're a feminist, or gay, or want healthcare for everyone, or a republican who doesn't want to feel shameful that you're against gay and trans people existing, want to ban abortion, throw the economy to the war machine etc.

I don't think your argument extends at all to a hard drugs problem, though. As a gay man who has learnt to ignore the "shame" of being gay and to ignore the (surprisingly still high number of) people that shoot me disgusted looks if I dare to hold a man's hand in public, I'm not also going to suddenly _not_ feel shameful if I get into hard drugs.

Also, I don't think you understand hard drugs at all. Pretty sure "shame" isn't even a blip on the radar of the awareness of the hard drug user, across all cultures and all of history, such drugs have been so potent that the addicted can only focus on the next fix; things like shame and morality sink into the background as effects of withdrawal from the drug take hold.

For example, China has a strong, stroooong culture of shame and societal shaming, but they still had that trouble with Opium, by your logic enough shame would've stamped that out immediately. People on those drugs don't work like people not on those drugs.

Addiction is a perpetual Ouroboros of shame. It is essential to understand this truth before ever wanting to integrate more shame into this problem.

If one chooses addiction - well, it is an authority that moderates his behavior – the substance. Any shame will only make its rule stronger.

The infantilization of society is a myth, society never really grew up to the point of understanding the universal truth - that kindness, support, re-integration, participation, gratitude - these are our allies to fix the society problems - not shame, guilt, isolation and indifference.

Shame is a bad thing IMO. It's basically self-deprecation as a result of peer pressure.

The thing is, peers aren't always right. In many cases the masses impose their self-centered views on arbitrary topics. It's not always about something as self-destructive as hard drugs, or even self-destructive at all.

You might live in a highly religious community but have LGBT+ feelings. You might wish to enjoy playing games though your community feels those are for kids. You might like particular kinks that others are frowning upon.

Feeling ashamed because of others' judgment in those cases is purely self-deprecating and holding the person back from truly finding themselves.

In many cases resistance to shame is a great thing and promotes diversity. Avoiding hard drugs is not even a matter of shame but the lack of realisation that a person is destroying themself.

I've worked with a number of people from rich European countries. Sometimes, they'd extol the virtues of their social programs, and I'd ask what keeps people from just mooching of them. The answer was always some combination of pride, shame, and sense of common purpose.

Shame relies on personal connections that they want to keep. People turning to drugs are already losing those connections at a rapid rate. Trying to shame them as they walk out the door isn't going to do anything.

America already has an epidemic of loneliness. Chemical numbing is a symptom of this.

I don't agree. Germany for example is pretty shameless beyond the shame border in USA. To give you a few maybe extreme examples (which does not apply to all people in Germany and not all this examples are sexual): Mixed saunas, swinger clubs, open relationships, no shame on being naked in designated nudity areas, topless DJs, a naked women is not a big skandal etc.

Yet Germany does not have the drug problems which Oregon has.

USA has a big shame problem (just look at IG) in sense of nudity and nipples (which is spreading around the globe thanks to US tech) yet you say shame is devalued in USA.

I think I just debunked your theory (sorry for that) but it's not shame.

This is exactly my thinking whenever the debate of "legal is good for all" or "Japan and Korea are safe". It's so honestly true that forming a cohesive group where shame of standing out hurts the individual is the much lesser evil. I absolutely hate the social standards of some Western countries compared to these. Most crimes committed in the shame-adverse countries are masked ones like speeding or spy cams.

The US devalued shame by using it for everything.

The big change recently is the me-too movement to change from shame into consequences, which is good for people with something to lose

But, with the moves towards feudalism in the states, there's too many people with nothing to lose, and both shame and consequences depend on having some status to maintain

I think your premise (that folks suffering addiction _don’t_ feel shame) may be incorrect. I think the addiction is more powerful than the shame.

> The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power.

Wait, are you talking about "personal" shame, or "corporate" shame. Cause if anything, corporations have none, and people are *learning* to also have no shame. Doesnt get you anything. Just makes you feel bad for no good reason, cause others are pointing a finger at you.

> Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract.

Simply put: fuck the social contract. I didn't sign it. It doesnt get me any benefits, and all it is a whole lot of "costs", all of which are ill defined.

So, no.

> Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created a significant subclass of infantile or openly hostile actors.

Being my username, a "pierat", has actually gotten me standing in communities. I democratize content access to the low common denominator of 0. I help others get the content they need or want. Im doing a lot better than capitalists slapping bills on access to everything... even if it does actually cost me money.

> It will likely result in people reaching for a paternal “strongman” figure and a subsequent slide into (probably) fascism.

We already are. Its not like anything I can do will affect that. I mean, whoop-te-doo, I make a pile of votes for even worse sycophantic leeches than myself every 2 years. And being in the "other party's state" (I mean, does it really matter?) my votes are effectively wasted. But it costs me 15 minutes.

> The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power.

It sounds like you are advocating for the virtues of oppression and the subjugation of anyone or anything that does not fit your norm.

> (...) many people unfortunately need an authority figure (...)

Let me stop you right there, and make it quite clear to you how profoundly idiotic and prejudicial your personal opinion is.

As you seem to advocate that people unfortunately need an authority figure, I'm sure you will acknowledge your need to be put in your place when you step out of line with this blend of nonsense, and simply succumb to the shame you should be rightfully feeling for your regrettable opinion.

If not, perhaps you can start to understand why your opinion makes absolutely no sense.

I would say more societal peer pressure than shame, but I don't want to argue semantics. I think that yeah, some of that went away, but another wave in another form is being created right now. Take a look at things like the fitness movement, NOFAP (which I think it's BS but that's beside the point), etc.

A lot of individuals get lost in this cultural transitional period, but I think this always happened. A good example was the hippy movement, they where very drug and free sex positive too. Society as whole will be OK I think, other non-legal checks and boundaries are being set up to prevent a major collapse. Collectively we learn from mistakes and correct for extreme behaviors.

I actually agree with you -- from the standpoint of socially influencing others who are not already addicts.

There is no true addict on the planet however (of any substance or behavior) who will hit "rock bottom", as they say, and moderate their addictive behavior due to shame. So I feel that some of the blowback you are receiving here is related to the notion (true or not) that public shame applied to addiction for the purpose of influencing non-addicts is equvalent to "giving up" on addicts themselves (and therefore not worth that cost).

You’re getting attacked a lot for this comment which I don’t think is fair. Shame helps hold people and companies accountable, and without a social control the only things that holds them accountable is money

I think this article is relevant - shamelessness as a strategy

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25591066

I can't say I agree. The answer to debilitating addiction isn't to make someone feel even worse about it (to the extent they don't already feel terrible). It's to provide meaningful support to get out of addiction and back to the life the person wishes they could have. Shame is fatal to dignity and self-acceptance. It has no place in public health.

There’s lots of other ways to build strong peolel than negativity.

I’m not a fan of the many culture either but dignity and positive inner dialogue is better for resilience than negative inner dialogue.

Like shame. Shamers usually are insecure or impatient to some.

Valuing one’s self is reason enough.

Learning to get better, or sleds order at something one day at a time doesn’t come from a negative spiral of solely living by what others think.

What is the set of core moral principles shared by all in our society? Turns out, one half of americans has one moral code derived from christianity of the old days, and the other half has been trying to develop an alternative moral code. The two moral codes are rapidly diverging, and so is the list of things that deserve shame in both camps.

I think you should feel bad for making this post. But you won't, will you?

I dont think that I buy your line of reasoning. For one thing, historically, a lot of social contacts were based on ignorance and bullshit. Women were persecuted for being witches, people were killed for having the wrong religion, race, sexuality. There are many episodes in history where this was socially sanctioned and approved by authority figures.

I think people are right to have a healthy dose of doubt and even disrespect for authority figures. That's far from infantilization. It's learning to think for yourself and to choose carefully who you take as an authority.

As far as addiction goes, the US had a pretty long experiment with authority figures telling people to just say no. How well did that work out?

We've devalued shame so much that someone can write a blog post about shame shilling and needing a strong daddy, chased with a soy Reddit closer. Unreal.

Interesting. I feel the exact opposite about shame. It's far too prevalent and people make too many choices based on what they think others will perceive

> Without shame, many people unfortunately need an authority figure ... slide into (probably) fascism.

A culture based on shame and guilt IS fascism.

> The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame

Shame is admittedly a very powerful tool for social conformity. During the few centuries that you seem to view as the good old days, it was used to great effect for blocking many different behaviors. Among those: not dressing in quite the right way; having dark skin; insufficient patriotism; insufficient aggression in men; the desire for autonomy in women; homosexuality, or for that matter basically any acknowledgement that humans are an innately sexual species.

And then society broke, gosh darn it!

The problem with bringing back those good old days of shame, but of course just in the way that's nice and beneficial, is that a huge number of people believe that all of the above listed shameful behaviors of yesteryear should still be shameful. Shame is the mechanism that various conservatives are using, at this very instant, in trying to brand all gay people as groomers, or all people who get abortions as murderers and/or worthless sluts.

So, in my humble opinion, it ain't happening; how are you going to get any kind of agreement about what behaviors are good to shame? Pandora's box has been opened for half of humanity, who all generally agree that non-harmful behaviors should not be shamed, while things like flagrant violations of election law or finance law should be; while the other half continues to vociferously insist that non-harmful social behaviors are the only real priority and the golden days would come back if only we could all hate the deviants again.

Yes, let’s bring religion back into schools. And for god sakes, cover up those legs!

We’re a nation that deeply stigmatizes the addicted, saddling them with shame and isolation; what makes you think that piling more shame onto them is going to change anything?

Shame makes people live lives of quiet desperation; it isn’t a building block in a healthy society.

You can’t devalue shame without devaluing dignity. They go hand in hand.

shame is what got us casted out from eden

How old are you?

Well said.

Shame is making a comeback in a big way with restorative justice. Hopefully enough of us get there so we can see meaningful change.