(Replying to PARENT post)

This whole controversy has been a little depressing to read...not that the Tesla vs. NYT discussions here have been worse than on other forums, but just because it shows how technical minded people are as easily swayed by preconceptions and alliances as more ostensibly non-scientific minds.

How many words have been expended in the other HN thread to allege that Broder -- after most have already established that he is a charlatan -- is receiving oblique funding from his Big Oil paymasters? It may very well be that Broder got a swimming pool full of BP-money in his offshore hideaway...but isn't it possible that just maybe, that Elon Musk has a vested interest in advocating for Tesla? Like, just a little bit?

It doesn't have to be that Musk is trying to cover up the truth. It could just be that this is his big project and he is overly sensitive to (some of it admittedly unfair) criticism to the point where he'll see malice where there is none. It's possible: bias from sentimental influence is not unheard of in the scientific community.

One of the most disappointing things about Musk's response was how he closed it with an out-of-context anecdote:

In his own words in an article published last year, this is how Broder felt about electric cars before even seeing the Model S: "Yet the state of the electric car is dismal, the victim of hyped expectations, technological flops, high costs and a hostile political climate.โ€

If you read that article, Broder was clearly referring to the controversy behind the Chevy Volt, which he also compared unfavorably to a "lawnmower".

Oh wait, that was Elon Musk who said that: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2009-05-11/green_sheet/2...

So basically, if you think Musk knows what he's talking about, then Broder spoke the truth about the Volt. Yet Musk uses Broder's assessment as a closing statement of damning circumstantial proof that Broder is decidedly anti-electric car.

Oh I know, this kind of cheap rhetorical trick is what all politicians and businessmen do, and it's OK if someone we all really admire does it, as long as his heart's in the right place. Maybe so, but I don't think it hurts to be a little more objective towards our heroes and realize that they can be prone to misjudgment too.

๐Ÿ‘คdanso๐Ÿ•‘12y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

I've read all the arguments on both sides, and while both have made good points, there is one that stands out.

This reporter clearly barely made any attempt at recharging his empty vehicle in Norwich, and then attempted a drive well beyond the car's capabilities, then made the "running out of fuel" his headline.

If he would have done this on gasoline, the result would have been the same, and I think that is getting lost in the clutter of all of the other points being made on this subject.

๐Ÿ‘คhalviti๐Ÿ•‘12y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

I didn't want to take sides either way, because it's obvious that Broder's and Musk's interests are diametrically opposed and so both viewpoints need to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

However, after reading this article it's clear to me that the data shows Broder flat-out lied about several things (like turning down the heat or setting cruise control to 54 MPH). He also clearly did not just use one of myriad charging stations on the way, even when it was apparent that the car would run out of juice soon. He chose not to recharge. He also chose not to charge the car fully at any of his other stops. While it's fine to play fast-and-loose with your "gas tank" like that (heck, I've done it with normal cars), it's another thing if you do it deliberately to write an "out of gas" headline.

It doesn't matter if the author finds several of these points convincing or not. If the log data is to be believed, it shows that Broder did several things that actively contributed to his running out of energy, and then he lied about doing them.

๐Ÿ‘คUdo๐Ÿ•‘12y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

> It could just be that this is his big project and he is overly sensitive to (some of it admittedly unfair) criticism to the point where he'll see malice where there is none.

This is obviously the case. Musk overreacted and will end looking like a fool.

But he has a lot of goodwill; he can afford to spend a little.

๐Ÿ‘คbambax๐Ÿ•‘12y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

I don't think Broder was violating his journalistic integrity but I do think he fell into the confirmation bias trap. He took the car for a test drive with the preconceived judgement that electric cars are not ready yet esp. in cold weather conditions. Then he subconsciously starts doing things to support his hypothesis, hiding behind his flawed reasoning that this is what any common person would do. The experiment was doomed to fail from the start. I can very easily create a similar situation with a gas-powered car -- it really isn't very hard to run out of gas if you are not vigilant about how much gas is left and where the gas station is located. In this case the charging stations are no where as widespread as gas stations are.
๐Ÿ‘คmetalsahu๐Ÿ•‘12y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

Musk doesn't show any smoking gun, and blows a lot of smoke. Methinks he doth protest too much.

Musk comes across more as a Preston Tucker or a John DeLorean than a Henry Ford.

๐Ÿ‘คRockyMcNuts๐Ÿ•‘12y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

You are misquoting the interview. Basically, he said "Tesla is not doing hybrids because we think that hybrids cannot be as efficient as pure electric or pure gasoline cars". He never said that hybrids are a dead end, just that he and his team think that they cannot be pushed to the same level of efficiency.

The lawnmower comment is out of context and the link you provide misquotes it as much as you do. Specifically, "And then when you have consumed your 40 miles, which is not going to happen every day, but maybe every third day, you are going to have an engine that is really underpowered. It's kind of like a lawnmower engine trying to power my sedan. So it's going to be running at very high RPM, it's going to be working really really hard..." (with some stuttering taken out).

You can in fact question a lot of what he said. The Chevy Volt does not have two drive trains. The engine does not power the wheels directly, but is connected a generator which powers the electric motor. The gas engine in a Chevy Volt spins at three very comfortable RPM levels, and I believe the highest is 4500 RPM or so. I think what he did is slyly switched the topic from the Volt to other plug-in hybrids like the Prius, where I can see some of these problems being an issue. In other words, you are right, he definitely is trying to downplay any competition. However, he did not say that the Volt is a lawmower.

I am also somewhat confused as to why a 40 mile powerpack needs to exert 5x the power of a 200 mile powerpack, though this may be my own lack of understanding.

๐Ÿ‘คIgorPartola๐Ÿ•‘12y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

This. I wonder how much of the controversy comes down to left vs. right brain, East vs. West Coast, liberal arts vs. engineering discipline thinking. Are we just siding with our "team" here?
๐Ÿ‘คhelmut_hed๐Ÿ•‘12y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

Your mistake was assuming that anyone could be immune to persuasion or ideology.
๐Ÿ‘คvertr๐Ÿ•‘12y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0