(Replying to PARENT post)

The Charlie Hebdo attacks show that these days, real satire of Islam can't be done without significant risk of violent reprisal. If you doubt that statement, remember The Book of Mormon. (The play, not the actual book.) Could you imagine Trey Parker and Matt Stone making an equivalent Broadway play about Islam? Could you imagine them calling it The Qur'an to Google-bomb the original? Even if they disregarded their own safety, dozens of organizations would do their best to stop it. Venue owners wouldn't take the risk. Insurers wouldn't accept standard policies. Audience turnout would be lower, fearing attacks. And yet, both religions are similar in their ridiculousness. One just happens to encourage less violence in its hosts.

For a little while, we'll all pile-on the cartoon Muhammad bandwagon in show of support. But after this dies down, who will be the first to step forward with some new blasphemous ridicule? Who will single themselves out, risking their life, their family, their friends?

Whoever does so will certainly be braver than me.

๐Ÿ‘คchroma๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

Trey Parker and Matt Stone have actually said basically what you just said.

In episode "201" (S14E06) all the celebrities South Park has parodied over the years collectively sued South Park town for making fun of them. The town would be ruined by the lawsuit, and beg for the celebs to drop the lawsuit. They agree to drop the lawsuit for just one thing - if the city could give them Muhammed.

The celebs had developed a machine that would extract the magic goo that makes it impossible to mock Muhammed from him. Eventually they get Muhammed and extract the magic goo. Tom Cruise eats it, but is shocked to discover that people can still make fun of him.

Comedy Central, ironically, totally beeped out the speech that followed (but thankfully it leaked Jan last year):

Kyle: That's because there is no goo, Mr. Cruise. You see, I learned something today. Throughout this whole ordeal, we've all wanted to show things that we weren't allowed to show, but it wasn't because of some magic goo. It was because of the magical power of threatening people with violence. That's obviously the only true power. If there's anything we've all learned, it's that terrorizing people works.

Jesus: That's right. Don't you see, gingers, if you don't want to be made fun of anymore, all you need are guns and bombs to get people to stop.

Santa: That's right, friends. All you need to do is instill fear and be willing to hurt people and you can get whatever you want. The only true power is violence.

South Park was right as always.

All their Muhammad episodes should be watched, in this order:

1. S05E04 (Super Best Friends). It's the only uncensored episode with Muhammad, and ironically he's a pretty cool guy. Only on torrents, Comedy Central has tried to erase it from history.

2. S10E03 (Cartoon Wars Part I)

3. S10E04 (Cartoon Wars Part II)

4. S14E05 (200)

5. S14E06 (201). Comedy Central actually bleeped all mentions of the name Muhammad in this episode plus the speech above. Watch the censored version first before you torrent the real version - the censorship is downright tragicomical.

๐Ÿ‘คkristofferR๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

Editors all over the western world exercise more caution when it comes to satire about islam than about christianity and in my opinion it borders a form of racism of low expectations.

Then again, who wants to be the next Salman Rushdie, Theo van Gogh, Jyllands-Posten, or Charlie Hebdo. It's not like they stand to gain much from running the risk.

๐Ÿ‘คflexie๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

The official response by the LDS church to the Book of Mormon was this: "The production may attempt to entertain audiences for an evening, but the Book of Mormon as a volume of scripture will change people's lives forever by bringing them closer to Christ." [1]

Not exactly what you would call "backlash." Then the church took out an ad in the playbill. [2]

[1] http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-statement-regar... [2] http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/06/entertainment/la-et-...

๐Ÿ‘คaustenallred๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

> "...real satire of Islam can't be done without significant risk of violent reprisal..."

Thought experiment: Can the same really be done for (say) Judaism without fear of being labelled anti-semite, losing your job, or worse? Could they have done it for Christianity and shown it in Bible-belt? (Maybe they already have and I don't know about it).

Also, there's a sense of 'no true scotsman' about your comment where you state no 'real' satire is possible. As though it only counts if there's 'significant risk of violent reprisal'.

from: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/09/solidarity-cha...

"When we originally discussed publishing this article to make these points, our intention was to commission two or three cartoonists to create cartoons that mock Judaism and malign sacred figures to Jews the way Charlie Hebdo did to Muslims. But that idea was thwarted by the fact that no mainstream western cartoonist would dare put their name on an anti-Jewish cartoon, even if done for satire purposes, because doing so would instantly and permanently destroy their career, at least. Anti-Islam and anti-Muslim commentary (and cartoons) are a dime a dozen in western media outlets; the taboo that is at least as strong, if not more so, are anti-Jewish images and words."

This would suggest that there is plenty of commentary that does not result in reprisals.

๐Ÿ‘คamirmc๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

> Could you imagine Trey Parker and Matt Stone making an equivalent Broadway play about Islam?

Team America: World Police? Durka durka?

๐Ÿ‘คmavdi๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

> real satire

"Real" satire of Islamic culture has been performed for decades. For the most part, you don't have to include the image of Mohammed for every statement you want to make of Islam.

However, I do agree that you should be allowed to do so without fear of violent reprisal. Unfortunately, this is not the world we live in at the moment. It's going to take a while before Islamists change their views on this issue.

๐Ÿ‘คilitirit๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

Before we all jump on our high horses about Islam, remember than many doctors and clinics who perform abortion in the U.S. have regularly and repeatedly been subjected to harassment, intimidation, threats of physical violence, actual violence, and in a few cases, death, by self-professed Christians.

Abortion is obviously not the same thing as a cartoon, but it is a safe, routine, and legal elective medical procedure in the U.S.

Also realize that the vast (i.e. many orders of magnitude) majority of Muslims, while offended by satirical depictions of Muhammed, do NOT resort to violence.

It is the violence, and threats of violence--not the offense--that is the problem. Plenty of people take strong offense at things that seem silly to other people; for example, over software libraries to initialize Linux-based operating systems (init.d vs systemd). Or mobile device app store rules.

And finally before we all jump on our high horse about religion, remember that there are plenty of examples of violent threats within our own industry--say, for tweeting about a sex joke at a software conference, or complaining about videogame reviews.

๐Ÿ‘คsnowwrestler๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

I'm as much for risking your life for a principle as the next guy. But I don't know which principle we're risking our life for. The message the others hate our freedom? (Seriously?)

Are we trying to "teach" these "uneducated and backwards" Muslims what freedom and freedom of speech are? Are we teaching comedy?

Sadly, in many cases those standing for "principles" are being defiant against the authorities in their own countries (as in who the hell is my Editor/Producer/Government to tell me what I can't say) whom the extremists have beef with and are getting caught in the crossfire. Yes, the extremists are wrong. I agree with the government not being able to tell me what I can and can't say. But to ignore reality is a whole different thing.

Let's extrapolate... Publish more content meant to offend so either they get used to it... or some fringe elements in the Muslim world commit terrorist attacks pretending to be the "defenders"... Then our government steps in and bombs said country back to the stone age (which incidentally is where these guys are most comfortable & can grab power the easiest). Think terror victims are pissed off/disturbed? I'm sure some kids in post war Afghanistan are a lot more ruthless than some of the meanest gangsters on our streets.

When I was on the streets, I recall being punched. The first thing that came to my mind was to kill the asshole that punched me, but I was able to catch myself before doing that. I realized that me punching back would eventually not just lead to one of us dying, but possibly his and my friends dying. He was astonished when I didn't punch pack, given I had a size advantage on him. I thought it through and made sure he, or anyone else there wouldn't punch me again, without anyone getting killed. We eventually became friends and started volunteering to feed the homeless.

If we're supposedly intellectually superior, and we're obviously in a superior position when it comes to the exchange of ideas in our society. If we can't stop and think a little more critically, then that's a shame. Principles are great. I know a gang member who is paralyzed from the waist down who really wished he's rethought that decision to fight. Sure the other guy ended up dead. The fight was about the principle of "respect". In the end they both lost.

It's stupid to jump on the bandwagon and stupid to complete forget. This is a good opportunity for us to think... There may be a better solution and machismo isn't necessary noble.

๐Ÿ‘คKillah911๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

Charlie Hebdo? I'm pretty sure they'll keep mocking religions.
๐Ÿ‘คsaalaa๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

Mormons don't live with the same fear for their lives as muslims. I guess if mormonism had originated in a more violent country it would be encouraging a little more violence. So I don't think the difference is just the ideology but also the cultural background. And western civilization has some blame (some, not all) for the instability and violence lived in middle east.
๐Ÿ‘คjackbravo๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

The story of the Mormons is a lot easier to make fun of though, and they are drop in the ocean compared to Islam (the second biggest religion in the world). Even so would you put that play on in Salt Lake City? I doubt there would be massacres but I expect there would be some form of defacement or attempts at suppression by fundamentalists.

And it's not just Islamic religion that would cause this, exactly what you described happened when North Korea threatened "The Interview".

๐Ÿ‘คorf๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

I take your point and agree with it but another factor you can't ignore is that there are 1.7 billion Muslims, compared to 15 million (wikipedia'd that) Mormons. Plus, I can't source it right but I have read editorials where broadsheet editors say they've been asked by the government not to print something in the interests of "national security" (IOW they don't want to cause problems with the Saudis or whoever.
๐Ÿ‘คjambox888๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

All irrelevant. How is any of this relevant? The extrapolation of your logic is that we should legislate against offending Muslims. That is the only outcome of your thought process.

> Insurers wouldn't accept standard policies.

No insurance policy I know will pay out for events of terrorism unless specifically negotiated (and i have done a few).

๐Ÿ‘คeasytiger๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0

(Replying to PARENT post)

While what you said is probably true for obvious reasons, also remember that those cartoons probably offended around 1.5bn people. Seeing that three people decided to react violently after several years of the paper being put out weekly, it is fairly safe to say that this could be described as a clash of the extreme extremists (of whom there are very few).

I am pretty sure the outrage against anti-Semitic jokes would be ridiculous, too (which CH spoke out against and fired over).

I am not defending anybody here, just wanted to describe a slightly different point of view. Obviously it is CH's own choice to put out and condone whatever they want and that choice should be granted.

๐Ÿ‘คreplax๐Ÿ•‘10y๐Ÿ”ผ0๐Ÿ—จ๏ธ0